One of the biggest sources of stress for people working in charities is conflict between teams. Many find that however committed they are, and however hard they work, the default structure and culture often hamper genuine cooperation and progress toward a common goal.
Given how difficult this problem can be, Rob was thrilled to talk to Joe Jenkins, who has given more thought and energy to solving it than anyone he has interviewed. Joe shares what happened when he worked for Friends of the Earth over a decade ago, when the leadership team did certain things to reduce silo-thinking and nurture conditions for success.
Joe explains it was this effort, especially in terms of structure, culture and a shared vision, that enabled the charity to later create the hugely successful and award-winning Bee Campaign.
If you’d like ideas and encouragement for how to build a co-operative, empowered and effective culture, we hope this episode will help.
Let us know what you think! And thank you for supporting our show, for instance by sharing it! We are both on Linked In, and on X / twitter we are @MrJoeJenkins and @woods_rob.
Episode Overview
Introduction to the podcast episode (00:00:54)
Rob Woods introduces the episode and its focus on solving the challenges of silo working in charities.
Joe Jenkins’ role at the Children’s Society (00:02:00)
Joe Jenkins explains his role as the Executive Director of Social Impact at the Children’s Society.
The need for collaboration and integration (00:02:21)
Joe and Rob discuss the importance of helping different teams understand each other and work towards a common goal. They share the historical reasons for structures that create silo working and why this continues, even though its now rarely fit for purpose.
Creating conditions for success at Friends of the Earth (00:08:37)
Joe shares a case study from his time at Friends of the Earth, emphasizing intentional efforts to remove silos and create a shared vision. Discussion on the intentional efforts to create a strong movement for change, involving supporters and stakeholders in the organization’s activities.
The success of the bee campaign and intentional conditions for success (00:11:32)
Joe Jenkins reflects on deliberately creating conditions for success and the impact of breaking down silos at Friends of the Earth.
Success Stories from Mastery Programs (00:20:30) Lily Whitlam shares her success story from the major gifts mastery program, including how it helped her achieve an extraordinary $1m donation.
Importance of Vision in Leadership (00:23:06) The significance of clear vision and common goals in fundraising leadership and the challenges in implementing it.
The Team of Teams Framework (00:24:13) Joe Jenkins explains the the “Team of Teams” framework and its application in organizational structures.
Challenges of Bureaucratic Hierarchy (00:27:46) Rob and Joe explore the limitations of bureaucratic hierarchy in addressing the complex problems we face in charities in the 21st century.
Empowerment and Shared Consciousness (00:30:38) Insights into the importance of shared consciousness and empowered execution in organizational effectiveness.
Impact of Clarity of Purpose (00:32:36) Exploration of the impact of clarity of purpose and empowered decision-making on campaign success at Friends of the Earth. Reflection on the unexpected long-term success and impact of the campaign at Friends of the Earth.
Conclusion and Future Episodes (00:36:43) Rob Woods concludes the episode and announces the release of Part Two (episode 148) which will share more insights and practical tips for achieving Team of Teams from Joe Jenkins.
Further Resources
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Transcript of Episode 147
Joe (00:00:00) – ‘…The organization structures itself in such a way that it incentivizes siloed ways of working.’
‘…And so when we see collaboration, integration, silo busting, it’s typically in spite of the organization rather than because of it. So how can we make sure that we’re creating a space where you can bring everything to bear in a way that plays to your strengths and your passions, but is for a common purpose?’
‘…One of those moments I remember was when I saw the person who had fundraising expertise arguing furiously about the political outcomes that the campaign mustn’t lose sight of, whilst the person with a campaigning background or 30 years in ecosystem services and nature and so on, said ‘yes, but what’s the fundraising ask?’
Rob (00:00:54) – Welcome back to the fundraising Bright Spots podcast. This is episode 147. My name is Rob woods, and this is the show for fundraisers who want ideas and maybe a little dose of inspiration to help you raise more money and really enjoy your job. This time we’re looking at ideas to solve one of the great challenges for many people who work in charities.
It causes so much frustration, so much stress, and it drastically reduces the amount of good that you can do. I’m talking about the conflict and wasted effort that arises from so-called silo working. Most fundraisers I know find this is one of the most difficult things about their job. So I was very excited to interview someone who spent more time thinking about the issue and testing ways to solve it than anyone else I’ve ever met. That is the quietly inspiring Mr. Joe Jenkins, formerly at friends of the Earth and currently at the Children’s Society in the UK. I really enjoyed this chance to talk to Joe. I got so much from it and I hope that you do too. Hello, Joe. Welcome to the podcast.
Joe (00:02:00) – Hey there Rob, good to be with you.
Rob (00:02:02) – Thank you so much for making time. Been really looking forward to this chance to talk to you about a topic I’ve long been interested in, which is this thorny issue of how in a charity, you help different teams understand what each other is up to and pull together towards the common goal.
Rob (00:02:21) – Some would call this the phrase smashing down the silos, or maybe the fancier word would be integration, whatever you call it. Most charities I know really struggle to really do this thing well, so I’ve been looking forward to chatting to you for a while in terms of helping our listeners tune in. So your current role is at the Children’s Society. You’ve been there for several years. I know you were friends of the Earth quite a long while ago. What’s your job title now?
Joe (00:02:51) – It’s executive director of social impact, so not a title that might be that familiar to people listening, but I imagine the things I’m responsible for will be very familiar.
Rob (00:03:02) – Yeah. And so what are 2 or 3 of the key things that you oversee?
Joe (00:03:07) – So the way I talk about my role, which is creating social impact with the Children society, is about how do we create change in the world as we grow support for the work that we do. And so really, it’s all the external facing bits about how you interact with people who share our passion and values for creating change with children, which means it includes all the things around fundraising, income generation, supporter engagement.
Joe (00:03:30) – It includes all the things around marketing and brand and communications. It includes all the things around political advocacy and campaigning and influencing. But what my job is, is to make sure that those things are all really joined up, so that we’re achieving as much impact as possible, and making it as easy as possible for my colleagues to be able to work well together so that we can make more impact for children.
Rob (00:03:50) – Yeah, that makes sense. And in terms of this topic, goodness knows many of our listeners, they work ever so hard. And I’m guessing one of the things most likely to slow them down or cause them stress and frustration when they’re trying to do the right thing.
Speaker 3 (00:04:06) – For.
Rob (00:04:07) – Their fundraising or their communication or their policy objective, whatever it might be is when something happens internally, in someone else, internally, or higher up or even externally, doesn’t quite see it the same way. And the two conflicting objectives or views on what we should be trying to do here really cause so much bother and frustration.
Rob (00:04:32) – Maybe some of it is obvious to people, but what do you think? Or what have you learned about some of the reasons why a this happens and why? B I think it’s even more likely to be happening in the modern era than it would have 20 or 30 years ago.
Joe (00:04:47) – Um, it is one of my deepest frustrations, and it’s feeling like my life’s mission is to try to find a way to crack it, because I’m sure it’s not inevitable that we have to work in silos against each other rather than with each other. And I’ve I’ve been in the sector for over 20 years. And I can tell you in all of those 20 years, I’ve been involved in conversations about fundraising versus marketing versus campaigning versus services versus finance. I remember the first time I was asked to give a talk at the Chartered Institute of Fundraising, way back in the noughties, was with another charity saying, is it inevitable that marketing and fundraising will be sworn enemies? By the way, my conclusion was no, it’s not inevitable, but it does take some work.
Joe (00:05:30) – Um, but in one sense surprise me that here we sit now, um, in the 2020s, still deliberating about it. But I do think as I’ve looked more and more at what’s driving that behaviour, that there are some structural and cultural levers we can pull to get to different outcomes. And I think they are more necessary now than than they ever have been. So let me say a bit more about what I’ve observed and and how I’ve been thinking about this, because I don’t know about you or when I’ve worked in different organisations and asked people what they feel we’re like at our best, they will over and over again talk about two things. One will be when they feel absolutely connected to purpose, so when they can feel like. The work they’re doing, they can see the golden thread through to how it creates change for whatever cause in my world, children, young people. But whatever. Cause you’re working in. And the other is when they feel like everyone around them is pulling in the same direction.
Joe (00:06:24) – When we’re all working towards the same goal, the same outcome, the same agenda. So I think inherently people thrive when they’re collaborating together, when they can bring their different skills and expertise to a shared purpose. And so I’ve asked myself if that’s the case, if that’s us at our best, if that’s when we’re most fulfilled in our work, why isn’t that the default way of working? Why do we still have this debate about silos? And what I’ve concluded is because the organization structures itself in such a way that it incentivizes siloed ways of working. And so when we see collaboration, integration, silo busting, it’s typically in spite of the organization rather than because of it. It’s typically unusual because it will be either by people coming together to be determined to work together on something, or it will be an extraordinary thing. It’ll be we happen to have this particular project where we did something different, as opposed to just this is the default way of working. That’s led me to believe that, therefore, we’re going to have to look at different ways of organizing and structuring ourselves if we want to incentivize and enable collaboration to be the default way of working.
Joe (00:07:35) – That’s something that we do because the organization enables us to do it rather than something we do. In spite of that.
Rob (00:07:41) – And in a moment, I’d love to get your take on what those changes to orthodox structure might be. But just before we do, maybe to to give our listeners a little hope, because they may still be thinking, well, that’s all well and good, Joe, but I still don’t believe you. I remember about eight, nine years ago you gave a talk which really inspired me and the other people at my Breakfast club for fundraising leaders. In those days. It was in that room, the amnesty building near Old Street in London. Many people are aware it’s online now, but it was one of the first breakfast clubs I did. There was about 50 people in the room, and you talked about how you had deliberately spotted this as the major enemy, major pitfall when you were a leader at friends of the Earth. You even drew a picture of how charities often structured themselves on.
Rob (00:08:37) – One half of the circle is the people who do the good work, and on the other half is those who are charged with going to get the money. They go and get the money from outside. They bring it into the circle. They pass it across, across the wall to the other half of the organization. And then the people who do the good work go out and do the good work with the money. And I still remember that diagram because you said anything we can do to remove these walls, both the circle between us and the outside, scrub that out or use an eraser and anything crucially to to remove as much of the wall between the front line doing the work and the the fundraisers or the communications people or the policy people like remove as many of those as as we can on the diagram and in the mindset and the language of who we are. And you did that. And I was thinking, well, good luck, Joe. So I’d like to see you. And then you told me a story about a campaign I already knew about, because it was the the only campaign I had ever known about or remembered that the friends of the Earth had done, which was the wonderful B campaign, which, I don’t know, remember the numbers, but it raised some more income than any campaign had ever raised for that organization.
Rob (00:09:57) – It got hundreds and hundreds of people outside the organization creating their own creative content for how they wanted to save bees. And you said lots of those were way better ideas than you or your colleagues would have come up with. And in all kinds of other ways, people joined as advocates and signing petitions. And lots of these things happened because of the hard, potentially stressful or boring work you had done two years before with your colleagues to do your best to not have each of us inside these walls, inside these boxes. Now, I’ve done a really mediocre way of describing that case study. But before we get on to some of how you do it now and how you did it then, could you just have I remembered that broadly, rightly, because the punchline to me was this crazy success that we’ve won awards for and people talk about at conferences, the best bit about it wasn’t the fancy idea. No disrespect to whoever came up with it, of sending supporters a packet of flower seeds so that they could enjoy being part of the solution, planting seeds in their garden as well as giving money and so on, that those kinds of ideas sounded so enticing.
Rob (00:11:12) – But you said really the, the, the most important factor was 2 or 3 years before the efforts we did as leaders and as colleagues to quite deliberately cause us all to be part of the whole. Could you just respond to my my memory of that story?
Joe (00:11:32) – Yeah, absolutely. And it’s absolutely the case, because often I’ve been involved in sharing case studies from from examples of things that we’re proud of. And a lot of what you share can often be post rationalised, as in you get to achieve something great, and then you kind of go back and make sense of how you got there. And often you kind of construct a story that that helps explain it. And whereas this is something that I know because I was there from the start, that it was intentional. Um, we set out to create the conditions for the success we enjoyed. And actually it is about creating conditions for success as opposed to the specific products or tactics or channels that were used, even though many of those were things we were we were really proud of as well.
Joe (00:12:18) – And perhaps in a moment, um, I’ll, I’ll come back to talk about something called Team of Teams, because it actually has helped me really make sense of what the principles were that we were working with. But actually, Team of Teams is something I came across after friends of the Earth rather than before. So it wasn’t a kind of manual that I used, but it is something since then that I have been using to help build on what we achieved at friends of the Earth in in my next organisation and with others that I work with as well. Um, but let’s take what what happened at friends of the Earth as you describe. So when we were developing our strategy before the bee campaign was even a twinkle in our eye, um, we had recognised a couple of things. So firstly, we knew that we needed to be building a strong movement for change, that if when we looked at the scale of environmental and sort of sustainable development issues that we were encountering, we as friends of the Earth on our own were not going to be up to the task.
Joe (00:13:16) – We would only be successful if we could be a catalyst for a much wider group of people coming together. And so when we thought about that, we thought firstly about how do we ensure that the kind of long term, systemic and often very technical outcomes that are needed in the world can connect to the everyday concerns of a much wider group of people so that they can play an active part. And how can we unlock the potential of all the different people that we’re going to need involved to be able to do that? And so we challenged ourselves to think rather than we are the staff in the charity as the active agent who have all the answers, and then the beneficiaries of our good work sit outside the organisation and the funders and supporters of that work sit outside the organisation as you described. Let’s draw a different circle. Um, and let’s start with what’s the social problem that we’re trying to tackle. And then what’s the movement of people that can come together to solve it? And in that big circle of a movement, how can we organize ourselves in a way that everyone can bring their unique talents to play, to make as much impact as possible? And to do that, that requires you to move outside of those siloed boxes.
Joe (00:14:34) – And this is something that I feel really passionate about for how we engage supporters, but also for everybody that we involve in how we make change. So for supporters, rather than us viewing them as the last thing that they did in transactional boxes, you’re you’re a cash donor, you’re a committed giver, you’re a lector, you’re a, you know, community fundraiser to you are people who share our values and passion, and you will want to do a range of things at different times. Sometimes you’ll want to volunteer your time. Sometimes you’ll want to give money, sometimes you’ll want to raise money, and you’ll have ideas that we don’t have. You’ll have networks that you could unlock. So how can we make sure that we’re creating a space where you can bring everything to bear in a way that plays to your strengths and your passions, but is for a common purpose, and similarly for everybody working within the charity on the payroll, the professionals that we’re not a separate comms department and fundraising department and campaigns department, um, each with their own individual goals and plans, we’re all people with skills and passion to and we will be able to do different things at different times.
Joe (00:15:39) – So how can we all get behind the same goals to be able to bring all of that to bear? And then of course, those who benefit from the work we do are not just passive recipients of our goodwill, but they are also stakeholders in what we’re trying to achieve and have their own, um, skill and resource to bring to bear. So let’s design, um, intentionally the activity that we do in such a way that it opens a space for everybody to, to participate. And that requires you to have to think differently about how you organize, because you can’t do that if everyone has their own plan. That’s. Based on their individual function and discipline. And so that meant that when we thought about what we wanted to achieve, um, strategically, we set out, okay, there’s a long term program, which is about lots of technical things, about ecosystem services and the restoration of the abundance of nature. And we have a clear long term path towards that. But we need a unifying way for everybody to contribute towards that kind of long term program without us all having to know what ecosystem services are and, and so on.
Joe (00:16:40) – And so that’s where the idea around the bee campaign came from, because it was an intuitive way of understanding and telling a whole big story. But it also was a platform in which everybody could then get involved in different ways. And rather than us trying within the organization to control what all of that looked like, so that, um, we were in that model of, well, we’re the active decision makers and you’re the passive participants and so on. Rather, it was put the problem in front of us and come together behind it. So say, this is what we’re trying to do. How can you get involved. And we will work together to make that as successful as, as we possibly can. So within the charity, having a group that weren’t like a fundraising team and a campaign team, but this group are here to help everybody create change, uh, around, you know, sort of rewilding the landscape, tackling the barriers that are causing the decline in bee populations, because that’s a way for us to restore the abundance of nature.
Joe (00:17:40) – But in that group, we will have people bring in all their different skills to the same outcomes. And I think I probably shared in, in that talk before, you know, one of those moments I remember was when I saw the person who had fundraising expertise arguing furiously about the political outcomes that the campaign mustn’t lose sight of, whilst the person with a campaigning background or 30 years in ecosystem services and nature and so on. So. But yes, but what’s the fundraising ask? And it was that recognition that whilst everyone had different skills and expertise, they were all equally committed to the outcomes that we were trying to achieve in that campaign? And that’s because it was one shared agenda. The problem that we were trying to solve was in front of us rather than us, each having our own problems to solve, and everybody was equally committed to how we achieve it, and we understood that to do it, we would need to have political change. We would need to raise awareness of the issues. We would need to raise funds.
Joe (00:18:40) – We would need to give people ways to volunteer with us. Um, and all of those things were important and we all needed to help make them happen rather than just saying, well, fundraising is the fundraisers job and campaigning is the campaigners job, and we’re each fighting for our our own agenda. So I think the point you were asking about is that we started with that intent in mind. Um, and we understood that what we would be trying to do is set out what we’re trying to achieve, create the conditions to achieve it, but not control the activity. So we wanted to set people up so that we all had a shared vision of where we were trying to get to, and we all understood the parameters we were operating in, but then we could unlock what people brought to that, their innovation and ideas, and we could, uh, permission people to just get on and make stuff happen as staff. But as you said, as as community groups as well. We weren’t saying, no, you have to use our resources.
Joe (00:19:33) – We were saying, you know, we need to get the word out. What can we do? What ideas can we have? And as you said, we had just a proliferation of fantastic stuff happening that we never would have thought of and had we said, well, you have to ask us first, it never would have happened because we would have slowed it down with all the bureaucracy.
Rob (00:19:49) – Hi, it’s Rob, and I wanted to jump in quickly to tell you about our two flagship training programs. That’s Major gifts Mastery and the Corporate Partnerships Mastery Program. These programs help you make serious progress through a combination of masterclasses with me and individual coaching or mentoring support. A key ingredient that makes them effective is that in addition to the techniques we teach, we also put great effort into helping you build your confidence and proactivity to reach out and set up conversations or project visits or so-called test drives with potential supporters. We’ve found that almost everyone who does these programs manages to at least double their results in this crucial area.
Rob (00:20:30) – To give you a sense of how powerful this can be. Here is Lily Whitlam, partnership development manager at Great Ormond Street Hospital children’s charity, talking about how it helped her.
Speaker 4 (00:20:41) – I had had a session with my mentor and we had a discussion about, you know what? What can I do to really press on those test drives? And it was just a case of chasing, chasing, you know, doing all that activity in December, knowing that in January it would pay off with these test drives. And once I’d had them, I yeah, as I said, I had six in total. Um, and one of them has actually led to $1 million donation from a company, which is absolutely unbelievable and something that we didn’t think would happen, you know, but I think it’s just a testament to that. That motivation, that clear focus that I had from the program and that focused activity between December and January. And that’s something I’ll kind of carry with me, knowing that if you put in that effort in December for January, when it’s traditionally a quiet a month, people don’t have much going on.
Speaker 4 (00:21:27) – I mean, I had the busiest January of my working career, and that was because I had that motivation and that focus. I knew what I was doing and just the energy I felt from it. And again, I’m not going to forget that energy. So I think it’s only going to make the work I do next stronger, because I know what that feeling was like. And it’s something that, yeah, I can celebrate and feel really proud of.
Rob (00:21:49) – To find out more about either Major Gifts Mastery or corporate Partnerships Mastery, go to Bright Spot Fundraising. Co.Uk forward slash services. So when I talk to leaders and I once did a particular project interviewing leaders, especially leaders that other fundraisers and leaders thought highly of, and I was trying to get to grips with how they operate in our space. Almost everyone. One of the first things they said that was crucial was vision. Get clear on the vision and keep working really hard to help everyone understand what this common goal is. And as obvious as that is, and I bet lots of our listeners would say the same thing, if we’re really honest in practice, what is the reality for ourselves or for many of our colleagues? Are they thinking first and foremost about what the problem is and what the vision is for solving it? Us as a group? Or are they thinking the dominant thought? How can I raise money today with corporates? Or how can I persuade the government on this policy issue? But I think the main thing is it’s not easy, but I think sometimes organizations presume, especially if you’re near the top of the organization, that everyone has tuned into the vision.
Rob (00:23:06) – And that’s the first thing, because for most leaders it is. But I think you have to work harder than many of us are aware to relentlessly and in interesting ways help people keep coming back to the first thing is, what are we trying to achieve overall? All of us. And later on is the thing that might be my set of skills with this particular type of donor or what have you, but I really found it interesting. This book team of teams, which you first let me know about. I’ve read it several times since and given various copies to to various other fundraisers. I know I’ve got so much from it because the ideas in it, they are different from what many leaders and cultures proactively try to do, and they’ve really helped me. So I wonder if a means for our listeners to understand how you went about a making this happen with your colleagues at friends of the Earth, and b, how you’re continuing to work at this problem in your current role? I think.
Speaker 3 (00:24:08) – That.
Rob (00:24:09) – There’s 2 or 3 insights and that framework will help.
Joe (00:24:13) – Yeah, absolutely. I’ll say a little about the kind of key concepts that sit within team of teams, and then I’ll share how that’s kind of informed some of the ways that I’ve been working with others to, to implement them and bring them to life. And so for those that aren’t familiar, a team of teams was initially authored by General Stanley McChrystal. So he was responsible for the Iraq Task Force during the time of the battle against Al-Qaeda in in the Iraq War. And so he had an immense job to essentially work with multiple different military agencies, from the Seals to the Marines to multiple different national interests. I think at one point, a span of kind of 80,000 people from multiple parts of the world trying to work out how to galvanize that number of people to achieve the common goal, and had realized that despite all of the might of that huge military force, they were effectively losing the war on a daily basis against Al-Qaeda, who were a dispersed network who were able to respond far more effectively to the the day to day battles than this mighty task force.
Joe (00:25:28) – And so I won’t go through all of what they did, but he, um, found a different way of organizing all of that, uh, that sort of military might to think really quite boldly and innovatively about how you can operate as a team of teams. And so that concept is simple. He observed that we do our best work when we have a small group of empowered people who can focus on the task at hand, that sometimes you hear the likes of the sort of Jeff Bezos kind of two pizza rule. You know, the perfect team is about six people, the number of people that can eat to two pizzas. I dispute that I, I’m not sure two pizzas would work for me amongst six people, but anyway. But you get the point. Um, but what do you do when you are much bigger than six people? And how do you avoid each group of six people becoming silos? And so a lot of his thought was around, how do you make sure that you can both enable small groups of people to do great work, but feel like they’re part of a bigger team that have a shared sense of purpose? And there are a number of kind of principles that he established through that, that he’s gone on to then set out, um, for organizations to be able to apply.
Joe (00:26:37) – And one of the most useful things I found firstly in, in that book was that he worked with organizational development experts to make sense of why this is such a challenge. And they looked at the history of work and why our organizations structured and operate in the way that they do, because the frustrations we have in the charity sector are not. Only within the charity sector. We might call them different functions like fundraising, but if you go into any industry, you will have the same challenge around silos. And so in the book, he kind of articulates the journey to create the kind of management structure we have, which is described as bureaucratic hierarchy, where essentially you have that sort of famous kind of pyramid where you have a small number of people at the top, and then everyone is kind of siloed down from that point. Um, and what they recognize is that the reason why we have that structure and it’s so dominant is because it was responding to the challenges of the industrial revolution. And the challenge there was, how do we achieve scale? Because before that, you had people working in things like guilds in much smaller and more fluid and more organic ways of working.
Joe (00:27:46) – But they had struggled to say, how do you take a small operation and make it a bigger one? And so the solution to that was you break everything down to the smallest constituent part. You work out the one best way to do that thing, and then you repeat it at scale. And so that leads you to that kind of functional way of organizing where you say, okay, well, we’ll we know we need to raise money, so we’ll call that fundraising. And within fundraising there are different types of fundraising. And so we break each of those different types of fundraising down. And then within each of those different bits of fundraising, we break it down to each role that we play. And you can see that replicated across finance and marketing and so on. And the reflection that informs team of teams is that that is effective when you are dealing with complicated problems. So when the issue you’re dealing with is complicated, you can break it down into its simple parts, find the best way of doing it, and repeat.
Joe (00:28:41) – And that worked really, really well in the Industrial Revolution. The challenge for us now is that we aren’t operating in a complicated world. We’re operating in a complex world where there isn’t one best way of doing things, that the solution today will have already changed by tomorrow. And that means that, um, trying to break everything down into its constituent parts and then rinse and repeat just isn’t fit for purpose in a very fast moving, very complex, very ambiguous world. And that’s why organisations have struggled more and more as we’ve got into the 21st century, because we’re trying to use a way of organizing ourselves that was built for the 19th and 20th century to deal with 21st century problems. And so what it recognised is that there are different ways of organising ourselves that respond to complexity. And that’s really built in and understanding that in order to be able to move fast and respond to things that are constantly evolving, you need to empower people as close to the decision making as possible to be able to be responsive to the world that they’re in.
Joe (00:29:41) – Um, but in order to do that at scale, which is still really, really important, particularly for larger organisations, you need to make sure that people aren’t all acting on their own agenda, but that it’s all part of that common purpose. And so the learning he had from the work that you did in the task force that he’s now replicated in organisations around the world. So it boils down to two ideas. One is shared consciousness and the other is empowered execution. So the idea of shared consciousness is we all understand enough of the bigger picture to make sure we’re all pointing in the same direction. So we all know, as you described it, you know what’s what’s the vision, what’s the North Star? What’s the goal? What are we all heading towards? So we can make sure that when we are taking decisions, we’re making them for that common endeavour, not just for our individual endeavour? The point around empowered execution is that in having that bigger picture, you then need to release people to be able to make quick decisions that are closest to source.
Joe (00:30:38) – And when organisations struggle, it’s because they get one or both of those things wrong. And so you can spend a lot of time ensuring everybody understands the big picture. But if you’ve still got a huge amount of bureaucracy and sign off processes and people feel like they’ve got no authority to act, it’s even more frustrating because you can see the opportunity in front of you and it feels very, very frustrating that you can’t do anything about it. Similarly, you can put a lot of effort into creating an empowering culture where people feel able to take decisions at source, but if they don’t have that sense of the bigger picture, the organisation can pull itself apart because everybody is heading off in a hundred different directions. And so the focus for leaders has to be to create an environment in which those two things guide how you work, that people understand that they’re part of something bigger than themselves, and they’re given the authority then to act. So if I bring that back to two friends of the Earth, then, um, that was very much the kind of culture that we were trying to build is that we were clear about this is what success looks like.
Joe (00:31:40) – This is the problem we’re trying to solve, which is the decline of bees, which reflects the destruction of the natural environment. And the goal that we were trying to solve was, well, we need, um, UK commitment to an action plan that will turn around the destruction of the natural environment and restore the health of. And then the wider, wider nature as well. So there was a there was a political goal, but there was also an action goal, which was in order for bees to thrive, they need natural habitat. So we need to create natural habitat. So we need wildflower areas. We need rewilding. We need commitment to open back up nature so that pollinators like bees can thrive and so on. So we were clear that’s what it was all about and everything was working towards it. And within the charity itself, we had some clear shared objectives. You know, it must be about real world change and it must be about creating engagement with a growing number of people. And it had to be both of those things.
Joe (00:32:36) – So everybody understood that when we were making any kind of choice, it wasn’t one or the other. It had to be the choice that did both. So it had to be authentically linked to impact, and it had to be accessible and open up support. And so with that in mind, we were then able to say, these are the resources we’ve got available to us, and that’s the goal. You are empowered to do all the different tactics and activity and approaches that deliver on that goal. And as leaders, we’re here to back you up. So if you get stuck, let us know. And if you need advice, we’re here for you. And if you think we need to change direction, then we’ll have a conversation. But you don’t need us to sign everything off. If you can see an idea that’s delivering on that goal, and that was extended through the main group, through all of the associated groups, through all of our community groups and, and so on. And so that kind of shared sense of we all get what we’re trying to do, and we feel like we know we can get on with it allowed us to have this absolute explosion of creativity and innovation and tactics.
Joe (00:33:39) – And so when we look at the success that we that we enjoyed and you spoke to some of it, there are some standout things, and those are the things that may have caught attention and won awards like some of the, you know, free bee packs and how we used kind of billboard posters and train posters and all this kind of thing and SMS and we did a drive and so on. But actually, the reason it’s successful wasn’t because of any one thing, it was because of all those things, um, and, and many more. So I think that’s probably for me, the big learning from it was, um, having that kind of clarity of purpose and empowered decision making. But actually, as I said, it was about the environment. It was about the conditions in which success can really happen.
Rob (00:34:21) – Yeah. And I think you mentioned it a couple of minutes ago. Was I right.
Speaker 3 (00:34:26) – To.
Rob (00:34:26) – Remember that that stated goal of of getting political, a political decision made, was it an action plan or something agreed that that was successful?
Joe (00:34:38) – It was.
Joe (00:34:38) – Yes, it was. Um, and so of the two years of that, uh, campaign rolling out, we had the government commit to a national pollinator strategy. It was announced at an event that we convened with multiple stakeholders. Alongside that, we were able to get back to to join with us and inspire all the big garden centres to take pesticides off of their shelves. So we had some really tangible, both political and and sort of business actions that are all in line with the approach we were trying to take. Plus, uh, we smashed all of our fundraising targets. We were able to transform our supporter base. It enabled us to diversify our portfolio of asks. And so essentially became the platform for an entirely new fundraising programme. I left there at the end of 2015. Um, so I keep in touch, but I’m not close to the day to day running of the organisation today. But what I do know, because I follow them and continue to support them, is that they continue today to build on the success of that campaign and many of the innovations that we first developed back in 2012.
Joe (00:35:44) – I can see how they’ve evolved and iterated, but are still sort of flagship activity for the organisation. And what amuses me about that is that when we first started it originally, we said, well, it’ll be a six month campaign. Um, it will be a it’ll be a quick sprint, uh, sort of a creative burst. Um, just to put nature back on the public agenda. But we never set out to run a decade long campaign that would still be having success, you know, in the 2020s. Um, but I think it really unlocked something, um, in how the organisation and became genuinely part of something bigger than itself.
Rob (00:36:18) – Well, congratulations to all involved then and now in achieving these amazing things that goodness knows are necessary. So there you go. I hope you found Joe’s insights helpful. As usual, we’ll put a summary and a full transcript, as well as a link to team of teams and some other resources in the episode notes on the podcast section of our Bright Spot website.
Rob (00:36:43) – Now, once Joe and I got talking on this topic, we found there was still so much ground to cover. So we just kept recording and Joe went on to share lots more valuable insights, practical things you can do, and some more great examples of what changes in terms of results when a charity shifts its approach. To keep these episodes in the usual manageable half hour chunks that hopefully fit into a commute or a lunch break, I’m going to release that second half of our chat as part two to make sure you receive that one and all the other important topics we’re releasing over the next few months. Do make sure you click the subscribe button. And if you’d like to find out more about our two long standing flagship programs, that’s Corporate Partnerships Mastery or the major Gifts Mastery program, which have now helped hundreds and hundreds of fundraisers to grow income over the last ten years. We’re now taking bookings for the next programs, which start in April 2024, and at the time of publishing, the early booking discount, which saves £400, is still available.
Rob (00:37:39) – To find out more, go to Bright Spot Fundraising. Co.Uk forward slash services now silo smashing is such an important topic. I’d ask that if this episode resonated with you and you think it would help other people, please do share it on with your colleagues and with other charities. I really appreciate your help. Do let us know what you think on Twitter or X. Joe is at Mr. Joe Jenkins and I am at woods underscore Rob and we’re both on LinkedIn. Thank you so much for listening and for supporting our show. Good luck with your fundraising and your leadership, and I look forward to sharing part two of my chat with Joe very soon.
